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6:18 am
June 17, 2010
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Vulturebait
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This was an article I wrote that I never actually intended to post on NYRA, but my friends on schoolsurvival.net convinced me. Attack me if you like because honestly I don't care.
The Problem with NYRA
I was on the National Youth Rights Association's website yesterday, taking a look at some of their articles and reports. We may not see eye to eye on everything, but they're trying, and that counts for something. With the obvious exception of the behavior modification industry, the voting age seems like the most significant youth rights issue today, so I went to their page on it. There were several links to talking points, and now that I've read them, I think I see the root cause of NYRA's ineffectiveness. It's not that they are weak or soft or too friendly with the enemy, it's the way that they see the movement.
On the issue of the voting age, many of NYRA's efforts seem to be dedicated to proving that minors can be just as capable of making informed decisions about politics as adults are, and in some cases may actually be more capable. While we all understand that this is true, they are missing the point of the controversy and this means that they will never win.
There needs to be a fundamental shift in the way NYRA approaches issues like the voting age. They can't keep the strategy of trying to "prove themselves worthy" of suffrage; it's an unsustainable fight that will postpone victory with each new statistic or medical study that the political establishment can produce. And based on what we've seen so far, this will go on and on until the movement gradually fizzles out. They need to simply take a stand and say that voting is a right, and all citizens must have their rights even if they are not intelligent or mature enough to use them effectively. Every time they touch on this point, and there are times when they have, they almost always contaminate it with another "if unintelligent adults can vote, why not intelligent youth?" talking point. Right now, NYRA is begging. They need to start demanding.
The way they conduct themselves now is inefficient and detrimental to the movement as a whole. By attempting to prove themselves to the government, they are automatically taking the offensive and putting all leverage in their opponents' hands. Every time they publish an article or chart about how youth can be just as politically involved as adults, they just reinforce the idea that voting is a privilege that can be taken away if the powers that be don't think a certain demographic should have it.
Nearly everything that NYRA has done wrong can be traced back to this fatal flaw. Since they are essentially asking politely if the Federal government will please give them their civil rights, they nave neutered themselves in their dealings with them. The futility of their meetings with politicians comes from their unwillingness to ruffle feathers in Washington because they would need those politicians' blessing to succeed. Their meager protests that rarely, if ever, make the news are hindered by NYRA's fear of being painted as "hooligans" who don't deserve the rights they're after. And, most troubling of all, their obsession with appearing as proper and responsible citizens alienates NYRA's leadership from the very people they are meant to protect.
There is a great deal of anger simmering below the surface of America's student population, anger that could blaze a trail towards true progress for the youth rights movement if it were utilized effectively. But instead NYRA has chosen to ignore it, dismissing it as the unhinged ravings of a few fringe extremists who endanger their organization's reputation with their violent fantasies. As we all know from history, belittling an angry populace does not make them go away, and NYRA will eventually realize this. Their endless quest to live up to the government's arbitrary standards is creating tremors of dissatisfaction among the lower-level members, and as more and more time goes by with no visible progress, it will only grow stronger. Any new organization that allows the frustrated, disillusioned youth rights activists to express themselves freely will literally pull NYRA's support base out from under them.
If NYRA ever hopes to win a true victory for the civil rights of American youth, they must take a sharp turn from their current path. Instead of trying to exhibit their intelligence and political maturity for the world to see, like a pet performing tricks in hopes of being given a treat, they have to stop playing the opponent's game and deliver a clear, simple ultimatum. They have to make it clear to the whole country that they are American citizens, and as such are guaranteed certain inalienable rights, including the most basic right to have a political voice in the form of a vote. If that right is not recognized, they must use every tactic available to publicize the struggled. Protests, televised demonstrations, mass attempts to vote that last until every participant has either cast their vote or been removed from the polling place by security…the list of unused techniques goes on. When critics argue that youth are not mentally or emotionally qualified, NYRA must ignore them and not take the bait. Voting is a right and you do not negotiate on rights. You keep fighting for them until you either win or pass the torch to the next generation, which is of course what the youth rights movement is all about.
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6:29 am
June 17, 2010
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maeyako
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If NYRA ever hopes to win a true victory for the civil rights of American youth, they must take a sharp turn from their current path. Instead of trying to exhibit their intelligence and political maturity for the world to see, like a pet performing tricks in hopes of being given a treat, they have to stop playing the opponent's game and deliver a clear, simple ultimatum. They have to make it clear to the whole country that they are American citizens, and as such are guaranteed certain inalienable rights, including the most basic right to have a political voice in the form of a vote. If that right is not recognized, they must use every tactic available to publicize the struggled. Protests, televised demonstrations, mass attempts to vote that last until every participant has either cast their vote or been removed from the polling place by security…the list of unused techniques goes on. When critics argue that youth are not mentally or emotionally qualified, NYRA must ignore them and not take the bait. Voting is a right and you do not negotiate on rights. You keep fighting for them until you either win or pass the torch to the next generation, which is of course what the youth rights movement is all about.
This is EXACTLY what we're doing! The problem is people are too apathetic to do much of anything about it!
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"What is innocence? [COLOR=Red]Ignorance" – written on a table at school. Someone wrote the question and someone else answered it.
[SIZE=4]ADULT MEANS ADULT[/SIZE]
Lower the Drinking Age!
"I was never a child I was just shorter and more ignorant"
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6:33 am
June 17, 2010
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SciVille
| | Germantown, MD | |
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You don't need to be defensive about it. You're certainly welcome to voice grievances. 
You actually make several good points, though I think you're basing too much on what's written on our website and not enough on what's actually been done. Lots of our members have voted underage (with various results). NYRA-SEFL, Berkeley, and others have had voting age rallies, met with politicians, gained various types of support, etc. These things take time. It also depends a lot on us having active chapters, where members live near each other and can coordinate on these things, but most of our members are geographically isolated.
I do admit I get sick of our constant "we must compromise on every little thing just for the sake of compromising!" That does stem from the "oh noes, we don't want to look crazy" stuff, which while in some cases a valid concern, we tend to overdo it sometimes.
Anyway, you talk about all of our disillusioned members. Where are these people? How many people are you speaking for? And if they're so disillusioned, why are we just now hearing about it? Send them over here and tell us what's wrong (if there's more than you mentioned). We won't ban you or shout you down. We want to know and make it better.
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6:59 am
June 17, 2010
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UnschoolEagle
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they have to stop playing the opponent's game and deliver a clear, simple ultimatum.
If only it were that easy…..
To be honest a shift in societal thinking needs to take place for NYRA to sky rocket. I will admit that NYRA is doing awesome given what is stacked against it. I don't think you understand that there is more to it than what NYRA does. You seem to be ignoring society as a whole.
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"All I do is stay focused looking straight forward at the world and beyond
I feel people pulling me down
I feel some pulling me up I can't get stuck
I just keep moving forward
I got places to go man, let's go" – NaS
"Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal." – Daron Quinlan
"You didn't get mature, you got tame." – P.O.S.
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7:30 am
June 17, 2010
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mandelduke
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Is NYRA perfect, of course not. But because of such awesome members like Katrina and Alex they will rule some day.
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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell? And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? Cold comfort for change? And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? How I wish, how I wish you were here. We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. Wish you were here.
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12:04 pm
June 17, 2010
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time-keeper
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hmmm, intresting points. If anything, i would encourage that we go world wide. 
The way we are opperate could use a little bump though…just a though.
~~~~~bump………
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There are many pressures nowadays to fit in. Society thinks that we are too immature, rebellious, and irresponsible. People do not expect us to be meaningful or to care about things but that is a lie. We are capable and want to be challenged but at the same time to be our own age.
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7:00 pm
June 17, 2010
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Yasha
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First of all, I'm glad you looked through our website and give us credit for trying. Thank you also for the well thought out critique. I'm a bit puzzled though why it is so hostile. I certainly hope that reasonable people can disagree without becoming enemies. I'm a big fan of School Survival and I think that forum and that website has a huge amount of good to offer the youth rights movement. I'm glad SS is bringing people together and sparking discussion and thought such as this. This kind of disagreement is healthy and beneficial to any organization and to any movement. There have been several posts so far and everyone seems to appreciate your feedback. As do I. NYRA is an open, democratic, and transparent organization and the free exchange and debate of ideas strengthens us rather than weakens us.
I've read through some things you and others here have said about NYRA, and I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding. The first idea is who or what do you think NYRA is? NYRA is a collection of various people who want to actually do something about youth rights. In an earlier thread on SS you said "Wait for NYRA to save us and we'll have died from old age by the time they've even reached the possibility of victory." If your plan was to sit around watching TV and posting in Internet forums waiting for a mythical "NYRA" to descend out of the clouds and deliver you from ageism then it is no wonder you are so frustrated.
That's not how NYRA works and that's not who NYRA is. NYRA is you. NYRA is me. NYRA is Katrina. NYRA is Jeffrey. NYRA is a collection of various people who want to actually do something about youth rights. NYRA isn't able to get stuff done when people who support youth rights do nothing. If you aren't willing to save yourself then you shouldn't be blaming anyone else for your situation.
Someone also said in another thread on SS "I was unaware that NYRA has had a twelve year long history. You would think they would have a bit more than one or too T.V ads to show for it." Yes, we've been around for 12 years. We have done A LOT in that time, but action requires actors. We are only as strong as the number of chapter leaders, volunteers, members, donors, activists and leaders who push this movement forward. The youth rights movement is extremely small. NYRA is a big fish in a small pond, so it is natural that folks look to us to "save" them. To many here we may look like a really big deal. It may be difficult to realize that in other ponds we are a very, very, very small fish.
NYRA works on many issues. Lowering the voting age, lowering the drinking age, curfews, behavior modification camps, student rights, the driving age, emancipation, age discrimination in business and many more. Each of those issues puts us up against many opponents. Many interests who oppose us. Many groups who are much bigger and much stronger than us. For example there are dozens of organizations that support keeping the drinking age at 21. Plus the entire Federal Government, plus most state governments, plus local governments. Just one of those dozens of organizations, Mothers Against Drunk Driving has a budget of $45,000,000. NYRA has a budget of around $45,000. So MADD who has lots of allies who also have millions of dollars and millions of supporters can put all their energy into opposing us. We, meanwhile, have to put our already meager resources into not only opposing MADD, not only opposing the dozens of MADD supporters on the drinking age issue, but also into the dozens of other youth rights issues we take on, and the hundreds of interests, corporations and government agencies who support them. Putting together all the issues, all the groups, and all the opposition we face, a low-ball estimate is more like $450,000,000,000 vs. $45,000. But yet you get frustrated that we haven't accomplished more. We are an ant fighting a 747.
Which brings me to the main points of your essay. You think our main failing is the fact that we are using the wrong arguments. That assumes that when we are on the streets and on TV and in schools and in the halls of government talking to people about youth rights we are just failing to convince them. That our arguments are weak, ineffective, and holding us back. That hasn't been my experience at all. When I talk to people about youth rights I convince them we are right. NYRA is very effective with this. I've spoken to 500 people and gotten standing ovations. I've gone on national television and gotten rave reviews. I've talked to raging ageists and after a few minutes of discussion gotten them to join, give money, and change their mind. Our arguments are not the problem. Our arguments are GOOD.
So why haven't we done more? Because those speeches to groups of 500 are too few and far between. Because we need to be on national television weekly, not yearly. Because I have two hands, two legs, one mouth, and can't be in every school or every city council chamber in this country. We need to get the message out wider. That means we need more people to carry that message. If we sit around and wait for me to do it, then we're all going to be pretty damn old before anyone notices. NYRA is only as strong as its membership. Our opponents have $450,000,000,000 worth of ads, workshops, staff members, and speeches to drown us out. The only way we are going to catch up is to grow stronger. So we either need more volunteers or we need more money to hire staff. Preferably we need both.
Politics is not about having the best ideas. The idealist in me wishes that were the case, but politics is about strength and power. It is cynical but true. What good is the best idea if no one hears it? The only path to success is growing bigger and stronger. That means we need to reach out to people beyond our current base of supporters. We need to get out on the streets, into schools, to concerts, on the Internet and to anywhere else people gather. We need to stop preaching to the choir and get out there with the zeal of a missionary and convince everyone else. Bring them over to our side. By doing that we grow stronger. We grow more powerful. Then we are better able to make change.
And when I say that "we" need to get the message out I mean all of us. I mean you. I mean me. I mean everyone out there who thinks youth are treated like shit in this planet. Because "we" are NYRA. And if "we" do nothing then NYRA does nothing.
I posted this also over at School Survival: http://www.school-survival.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24651&start=0
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New on One and Four: Lots of new updates! Check out One and Four!
Chip – Alex is a tool, a screwdriver we must use to screw the ageists
There are 5 bullet points about writing letters to the editor, the longest one is about being concise. – Eric talking about a new draft of the chapter handbook.
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2:01 am
June 25, 2010
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Vegetarian
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IDEA! IDEA! IDEA!
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Why doesn't a Youth Rights activist run for office. Of course the person has due to ageist laws. BUT IT MIGHT WORK! A president helped get women and blacks more rights so RUN FOR OFFICE!
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Vote Steven for the FIRST 10-year old US leader!
Make pies not war. :shame:
I have a dream! -MLK
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9:23 am
June 25, 2010
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time-keeper
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Thing is, we need people who work in/with politics. Or want to. Youth especialy. I would, except i dis-like politics. Either way, i am going into the medical feild.
You should though. Politics need vegetarians!!!
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There are many pressures nowadays to fit in. Society thinks that we are too immature, rebellious, and irresponsible. People do not expect us to be meaningful or to care about things but that is a lie. We are capable and want to be challenged but at the same time to be our own age.
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3:53 am
August 8, 2010
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epiphyte
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Here's my response…NYRA Will Never Work?
KPalicz, you know those old-fashioned battles when the two sides would just line up and shoot at each other? What would a battle between $450,000,000,000 and $45,000 look like?
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11:25 am
August 8, 2010
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Socrates
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There needs to be a fundamental shift in the way NYRA approaches issues like the voting age. They can't keep the strategy of trying to "prove themselves worthy" of suffrage; it's an unsustainable fight that will postpone victory with each new statistic or medical study that the political establishment can produce. And based on what we've seen so far, this will go on and on until the movement gradually fizzles out. They need to simply take a stand and say that voting is a right, and all citizens must have their rights even if they are not intelligent or mature enough to use them effectively. Every time they touch on this point, and there are times when they have, they almost always contaminate it with another "if unintelligent adults can vote, why not intelligent youth?" talking point. Right now, NYRA is begging. They need to start demanding.
I think you're wrong. Using ideologically-heavy arguments-such as "voting is a right for everyone"-is a poor way to convince opponents. Pragmatic arguments must be used. Just saying that everyone has a right to vote will fail. This is why it is important for NYRA to curb away from displaying extremism. Arguing that the voting age should be 16 is much more likely to succeed that arguing for a 0 voting age, even if your ideologically believe that there should not be a voting age and that discriminating based on age is wrong.
You have to choose whether you want to win, or you want to be right. Good politicians choose to win.
As an example, read the arguments of the pro-life group NRLC. I bet that almost every member of theirs believes that it is fundamentally wrong to end human life. But their arguments are much more pragmatic. They promote arguments about the pain mother's feel after abortion, and lost economic growth, etc.
Lots of our members have voted underage (with various results).
Wow, that's awesome, Kat. I'd love to hear more about these people–and their various results.
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This post brought to you by:
Jesse L. Hunter
And year after year, decade after decade, generation after generation, we still hear the same old complaints. Kids don’t appreciation, they don’t behave, they don’t learn. They spend too much time on frivolous pursuits. They have no work ethic, no respect. They don’t understand the value of a dollar. They’re impulsive. They don’t understand risk. They don’t look ahead to the future.
And year after year, decade after decade, generation after generation, adult society responds with more of the same.
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11:57 am
August 8, 2010
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Agnapostate
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I'm aware only of you and me. There are others? that's cool
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"Well, judging by his outlandish attire, he's some sort of free thinking anarchist." - C.M. Burns
"Property is theft, right? Therefore, theft is property. Therefore, this ship is mine." - Zaphod Beeblebrox
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7:05 pm
August 8, 2010
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SciVille
| | Germantown, MD | |
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7:33 pm
August 8, 2010
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Agnapostate
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"Well, judging by his outlandish attire, he's some sort of free thinking anarchist." - C.M. Burns
"Property is theft, right? Therefore, theft is property. Therefore, this ship is mine." - Zaphod Beeblebrox
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5:11 am
August 10, 2010
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VoteAt16
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First, I'd just like to say that I think the NYRA is doing great things! If only we did have more resources or publicity, this would be a good idea However, slow progress cannot be mistaken for not working. It took Thomas Edison what, over a thousand attempts before he perfected the light bulb? & even now, we're constantly inproving the light bulb.
Someone also said in another thread on SS "I was unaware that NYRA has had a twelve year long history. You would think they would have a bit more than one or too T.V ads to show for it." Yes, we've been around for 12 years. We have done A LOT in that time, but action requires actors
I agree with Kpalicz. These things do take time. There was a 50 year gap between all male suffrage and when the first women were able to vote. The NYRA has been around barely a quarter of that time period. Who is to say that the moment won't gain momentum in the really near future? What if those who fought for women's suffrage gave up on the eve of the 49th year? Would Women's suffrage exist today? No one really knows! That's why it's important to continue the fight, regardless of how the situation looks. If we all gave up on our dreams, personal and political, then no dreams would become reality. What if our 12th year is comprable to the 49th year of the women's suffrage movement? The point is, never give up. I, for one, am glad for all that the NYRA is doing, and will continue to do. As long as even one person does not give up on here, there will be hope for the future. I for one won't and I know I'm not the only one. That gives me enough hope to continue the fight. I hope this also encourages others on here
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7:03 am
August 12, 2010
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epiphyte
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VoteAt16, the irony is that time is your worst enemy. With kids it's just a matter of time before they'll be able to vote. With women it had nothing to do with them being patient.
Do you know why the voting age was lowered from 21 to 18? Because 18 year olds were fighting in the Vietnam war. If there was some distant war where 16 year olds were required to fight then maybe the voting age would be lowered to 16. In that situation though lowering the voting age would be the least of our problems.
Pragmatically you don't try and fight a $450,000,000,000 vs $45,000 battle. You concede that you are against far superior forces and use that concession to eliminate the age qualification when it comes to voting. In any kids vs adults issue like lowering the drinking age…adults will always win hands down…so there's no harm in allowing kids of any age to vote.
It's like in Aikido…you step off the line and use your opponents force against them. $450,000,000,000 vs $45,000 isn't a battle…it's a massacre. Actually…it's a few steps worse than a massacre.
Step off the line and use that money to teach kids that democracy is just tug of war. It's not about being informed…it's about having the opportunity to try and protect your interests. If adults realized that your interests are represented by $45,000 and that their interests are represented by $450,000,000,000…then there would be no logical reason why they would not at least allow you the opportunity to try and protect your interests.
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4:03 am
August 13, 2010
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VoteAt16
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Yes, I'm quite well aware of that. Actually, History is one of my best subjects, so there's no point in arguing with me or teaching me about it. The point that I'm trying to make is that regardless of the time this will take to make a reality, if and when it does, which I believe will happen someday, it will eventually happen. I know it sounds cliche to say these things take time, but it certainly is true. We'll just have to be patient like all the other equal rights groups out there promoting their views. One group that comes to mind is one group who I won't name, but if you follow the news in California, things look like they're going their way for now, especially today. As for war – related help for this cause? I read a really good book a few years back that you might want to read if you haven't yet. It's called The Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane. I'm not much for physical or war fighting save for self-defense purposes, but you can't change history.
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2:10 am
August 17, 2010
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epiphyte
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"…be patient like all the other equal rights groups out there promoting their views."
Same sex marriage and women's suffrage has nothing to do with age. The age qualification can only be compared to the age qualification in our history and in other countries.
The point that you're not getting is that all of you will be able to vote in a few years. The only way your argument might make even a little sense would be in the movie Twilight where vampires are eternally 16. Well, not even in that situation because their birth date would indicate their actual age. They would just get carded whenever they went to a bar…or rated R movies…etc
At the current rate there will never be a tipping point. It sucked when I was in basic training but all the soldiers that made it past basic training would agree that basic training is necessary. To be able to vote you don't even have to have a high school diploma…all you have to do is wait. Adults, having been in your shoes, agree that 18 is a decent age to be able to vote.
To reach a tipping point…adults would have to understand how democracy actually works.
Yeah, I read the Red Badge of Courage a long time ago. It was good but my memory sucks. When I think of Stephen Crane what comes to mind are a couple of his poems…
I saw a man pursuing the horizon;
Round and round they sped.
I was disturbed at this;
I accosted the man.
"It is futile," I said,
"You can never -"
"You lie," he cried,
And ran on.
________________
Tradition, thou art for suckling children,
Thou art the enlivening milk for babes;
But no meat for men is in thee.
Then –
But, alas, we all are babes.
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5:07 am
August 17, 2010
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kingnixon
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epiphyte;412297 wrote: The point that you're not getting is that all of you will be able to vote in a few years … Adults, having been in your shoes, agree that 18 is a decent age to be able to vote.
you assume that everyone here is young and that all adults disagree with nyra. that ain't the case.
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everything's better when hunting for treasure!
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5:11 am
August 27, 2010
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VoteAt16
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you assume that everyone here is young and that all adults disagree with nyra. that ain't the case.
Well said, kingnixon There are genuine people all over who support this endeavor that come across the whole age spectrum. Just read some of the posts on here, and you'll find some evidence of actual politicians who support this, and I don't think by some people's standards, you can consider them young The important thing is that we continue to fight for this, and not give up. Count me among the many who will continue to fight for suffrage for all 16-year olds!
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