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CA Driving Age

UserPost

10:18 pm
March 14, 2004


rzalaskus

posts 3

1

I was just told by a friend that California teens born after 1990 will be unable to get licences until they turn 18. I thing this is incorrect, or at best pending legislation, but does someone have the answer.

10:50 pm
March 14, 2004


Euripus

posts 8278

2

A simlar age-hike occured in Florida not long before I left.

It is *possible* — but I don't know California, but I'm hoping the "Bee" does:
http://www.fresnobee.com/local/v-sl-opinion-stories/story/8119317p-8974483c.html

Fools… it's not California's YOUNGEST drivers that are most likely to get in accidents — it's Califonia's NEWEST drivers that are…

30, 40, 16,…

You first start driving, you try and keep it straight as much as your more experienced counter-parts!

They are the most ABLE drivers, certainly.

Vision, reflexes,.. all would be better in all probabiliy than in most people older than them. (however young being considered)

It's the experience that COUNTS; the sooner the BETTER and the more real it is, or if it is real, all the more preferable.

Like I said… that 70+ year old man that plowed through nearly as many people as he is years old…

Nobody wants to say it's on account of his age…

"He was confused"

SOMETHING's confused, that's for sure…

(Rant fades)

Euripus is defunked yo :p

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10:53 pm
March 14, 2004


Euripus

posts 8278

3

Quick:

You don't inspire or allow the devolopment of maturity or responsibility by insulating someone from it.

That's going to have the opposite effect.

If they can't drive at 15, they probably won't drive ALL that great at 30, either.

The sooner the exposure and compensatory skills are developed, the better.

I hereby submit as evidence the WONDEROUS abilities of this younger gentlemen at his game of choice — obviously having practiced a great deal for many years…

He is DAMNED good at it:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/asianarcade.html

Same goes for driving.

OUCH! =))

Euripus is defunked yo :p

[SIZE=7]
[/SIZE]

12:20 am
March 15, 2004


Brendan Perez

posts 550

4

What's really happening is that people who have had their license for zero years (16 year olds) have a higher rate of accidents than people who've had their license for 1 year (17 year olds).

Gee. What a shock.

In a Perez apartment revelation today, I, Senior Researcher Brendan Perez, did a study in my house and found that people who've been using Windows XP for 2 and a half years have an easier time navigating the interface, changing settings, make less mistakes etc. than people who've never used it before. People who used Windows 2000 for 2 year prior to that (me) had an even easier time using Windows XP compared to those who were using Win98/Me (my brother). More to follow.

In a few days I'm going to do another study on first time Linux users, I will compare my entry into the Linux world with my usage of Suse 9.0 for the last month and see if I have less "accidents" then my brother, who's never used it before.

California changed their system a while back to prohibit night driving and passengers until either 18 or for the 1st year (I'm not sure which). No mention whatsoever about that system.

This seems to be something that always happens, legislators pushing for more restrictions never mention the existing ones, even if they were only put in place the year before. This saves them from having to answer questions about the effectiveness of the system.

For instance, in 2001 Nevada got a "weak" version of this GDL crap. In Feb-Mar 2003, the same person who's been after teen drivers since 1995 (Barbara Cegavske-R)pushed for an even more restrictive bill all the while never mentioning the bill that was passed in April 2001 and made effective October 2001.

I couldn't attend that hearing, but watched it via webcast, someone from the National Motorists Association opposed it on several fronts and did mention that no one else had mentioned the existing law and he questioned if that had been effective or not, and if not we should ask "Why not?"

I think part of his reason for asking that wss that nearly all of the "tragedies" being used to promote this new GDL bill were already covered under (in some cases, numerous) existing laws.

One high profile crash that got more mileage in the news than all other similar adult caused tragedies put together involved an unlicensed 16 year old who was speeding and crashed, killing herself and two others, and injuring one.

Barbara Cegavske didn't wait long before using this crash to promote more restrictive licensing laws. The survivor of the crash was also quoted in several articles talking about how she thought it should be harder for teens to get a license.

The flaws in these arguments were numerous.
-The bill that was being promoted didn't actually make it harder to get a license, it should made it harder on teens after they got their license.
-Even if it did make it harder, is that really what we want to do given that this is all being promoted because of a crash by an unlicensed driver.
-A bill that places additional restrictions on teens after they get their license is touted by its supporters as one "that could saved this Las Vegas High School teens", despite the unlicensed and thus, illegal status of that driver.
What they seem to be saying is that a driver who would break the law by speeding, not wearing a seat belt and not having a license would listen to a law that requires 16 year old licenseholders to be passenger free for the first 2 months.
-The girl who survived and promotes GDL is probably doing some kind of projection of blame, guilt, and/or anger. She chose to ride in a car driven by a friend who had no license, was known to speed, and she chose not to wear her seat belt. Because of that, she thinks all future teens should be burdened by additional restrictions because she couldn't follow the existing law.

Another crash was by a 16 year old who had had his license for 9 days, had several passngers in his car and was speeding, possibly racing with another car, ran a stop sign and hit an 18 wheeler. The driver and (I believe) front seat passneger died. Barbara Cegavske and several others were quick to editorialize and make their voices heard in the news as how "this crash proves we need graduated licensing in Nevada".

Problem for them is, we did have GDL then,
this was in August 2002 nearly 10 months after GDL went into effect. The driver, Ryan Sneed, was breaking the law by having passengers in his car during the first 2 months of his licensure, not wearing his seat belt, speeding, racing, and running a stop sign.

A few of the later accidents could be looked at as possibly having been prevented by the proposed law, as they only involved speeding or loss of control. But those technically relevant accidents weren't the ones used to promote more restrictions. There were 3 in Nothern Nevada, one involved racing (against a 23 year old ), anther involved leaving the road, overcorrecting, and losing control, and another involved a 16 year old driver of two weeks who was off-roading, lost control, and crashed killing his 14 year old passenger. The last one was covered under existing law if the lands were public, or not covered at all if the land was private-no license and few traffic laws apply on private property.

The Reno-Gazette Journal was quick to jump on this last accident, while lumping it in with those from Las Vegas, claiming that GDL was needed to prevent accidents like this.
They did print my letter-I pointed out that no one was talking about improving drivers ed, only raising the age which would transfer accidents. I also pointed out that nearly all of the accidents they used to justify more GDL were covered under existing law.

Two months ago, in Henderson, a 16 year old driver of 9 weeks crashed his car into a wall, killing 3 of his 4 passengers-the 3 killed were all 15. As details emerged, we found out that he was speeding, not wearing a seat belt, possibly drunk, at 1:30 am.

The very next day, Barbara Cegavske was in the paper talking about this wreck as one that could have been prevented if the GDL bill in 2003 hadn't died in committee.

The LVRJ printed someone eles's letter instead of mine. It made nearly the same point as mine-that it's silly to think that someone who would break numerous existing laws by speeding, not wearing a seat belt, driving drunk, drinking under 21, and being out past midnight would somehow listen to a law that said no passengers.

Even though he's under 18, the police released his name because the DA "might" try him as an adult and we found out his BAC was .19.
He recently pleaded guilty in juvenile court and got a sentence that I feel was proportional to his level of rights and privileges, he'll be held in a juvenile facility until he's 18, no license until he's 21, probation 18-21 and a bunch of hours of community service.

In an LVRJ article, Sandy Heaverly of StopDUI said he should have been tried as an adult and that Nevada needs "blended sentencing". Towards the end of that article, she, surprise!, said that she supports GDL. I emailed her and asked her if it's not just a little inconsistent to want a 16 year treated as an adult for driving drunk, while all other 16 year olds are treated as children when it comes to receiving their license. I also asked how she reconciled this desire for adult treatment with the 21 drinking age.
She never responded.

The father of one of the kids killed, another surprise, also wants GDL AND he wanted the driver tried as an adult. In one of the LVRJ's forums I pointed out that this would mean his son was also essentially an adult. An adult who chose to get in the car with an obviously drunk driver who, according to news sources, was known for speeding, and chose not to wear his seat belt. This would mean his son would bear some responsibilty for his own death.
I wonder if the fathers desire for GDL is the same kind of blame/guilt/anger thing that I think drove the girl in the 2002 crash to push for GDL.

In 2005, we will see yet another push for GDL and everyone will dance on the graves of those three dead 15 year olds and some will bring up every crash since 2000 no matter how many existing laws they were breaking.
I will do everything in my power to be at that hearing so I can ask if the existing law works before we simply move on, and if it doesn't work, why doesn't it work? The answer is that it doesn't work because it's being ignored, in which case a stricter law will do no good. I'll also point out that the crashes that led to the current law were covered under the existing laws as well.

I'll end my rant here. Sorry for the lengthy post, just wanted to point how disingenuous the GDL movement is.

[This message has been edited by Brendan Perez (edited March 14, 2004).]

Insert signature here

4:16 pm
March 16, 2004


rzalaskus

posts 3

5

So this is just a pending bill, not a law yet.

7:31 pm
March 16, 2004


Euripus

posts 8278

6

I might add, in 2002, while in Georgia here, the legislature made the Law such that if you are under 21, and accumulate SIX points on your' license, it is suspended.

If you are over 21, the standard is standard.

Ageist Law — to "protect" us, and supposedly other drivers as well.

Well, hallelujah to that, because the roads have been safer for well over 6 months now, and will be into the foreseeable future until I can get all my business in order relating to the car.

The suspension lasts for 6 months in addition to whatever fines, community service, etc is to be done.

As to the "crime" — or rather, the *potential* crime that was theorhetically prevented by making the *possible* steps up to it a crime…

"Speeding."

Which, amongst many others (although this a neglected item of that lot) constitutes a crime wholly "possible," however improbable, and not necessarily (if even) directly commited by the party charged with a "crime."

Like… certain varities of pr0n.

Like… certain varities of plant-life.

Neither constituting a crime itself; yet illegal none the less.

Much as with a "hate CRIME" Law (violation of the Law plus (?) violation of the Law for HATING as well?)… it does not constitute the act itself; nor is it OF the act in such a way as to be seperable; thus, you punish doubly for the same act.

We must end all of these mindless Laws which seek to manipulate "intent," to presume to play God and make criminal acts that have NO MATERIALIZED harm arrising from them THEMSELVES; Speeding, "possession" of plant life, "dirty" pictures….

You note, the consumption of the drug is not technically illegal — just as is not ACCELERATING in your' car…

You must have some arbitrarily identifiable point at which the Law presumes to interdict your behaviors…

You are not charged with Rape for holding pictures; this is understood as madness.

You are not charged with Murder, for owning a Gun; this is similarly madness.

You are not charged with Vehicular Homicide for accelerating or maintaining speed in your' vehicle; because this would also be INAPPROPRIATE SPECULATION AS TO THE END-RESULT OF ACTIONS HEREFORTO NOT CONSTITUTING A LEGITIMATE CRIMINAL CONCERN.

So you see — if you breath to stay alive; and while using this air to breath… you murder someone; is the air itself and your consumption of it not evidence of criminal corroboration between you?

This the logic that is used for Speeding — minus the murder!

Every environmental variable in the WORLD does not matter!

Only a criminal act itself; and that criminal act alone constitutes what is criminal — and if the Law deems criminal environment variables, opinions, emotion, or what have you… and not SUBSTANTATIVE ACTS…

Then we will never recover from the misuse of the Law this way.

Because you can use that logic to make the ground underneath your' feet criminal before you've walked onto it — and call it trespassing.

Protection of PERSONS and PROPERTY in a literal sense… is Law intended for.

Not some imagined "ish" of either, wherein it is employed to protect "aggresively" the Rights of others; the only protections these Rights can have are DEFENSIVE, REACTIVE, protection…

Which means they must be infringed upon directly prior to criminal interdiction occuring!

You do not Rape by looking at pictures!

Murder by owning a weapon!

Kill by driving!

Or bring harm others by using Drugs!

YOU *CAN* do all of the aforementioned incidentally while doing the other-part of these things…

But you can murder without an express weapon, can you not?

Can Rape without ever looking at pornography?

Can kill/be killed driving while driving perfectly safely?

Can steal, rob, etc, etc, other while of "perfectly sound" mind, without drugs being present.

The Law MUST NOT deal in probabilities, or wagers…

You either have a fish or you do not — you do not have claimed on you a fish when you have merely cast out your' line…

But will this wisdom be heeded?

Most certainly not.

But, it is still possible.

On that basis — I will withhold my conviction.

[This message has been edited by Euripus (edited March 16, 2004).]

Euripus is defunked yo :p

[SIZE=7]
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6:13 pm
April 15, 2004


Kev

posts 3138

7

These people are idiotes, how don't they see that it isn't the age that matters. A new driver is a new driver. A 70 year old who is driving for the first time will drive as bad as a 15 year old driving for the first time. Its experiance, not age. Are you automaticly smarter and more capible than someone if you are older than them. If a dropout turned garbage man with no education, a bad attitude and is always stoned can drive why shouldn't a 16 year old kid who is in school doesn't do drugs while he is driving, and has a posotive attitude. DOn't let the idiots of society ruin it for you. THERE ARE IDIOTS IN EVERY AGE GROUP

I am right. You are wrong. And let me explain to you, in considerable detail, how I am right and you are wrong. And if you disagree, I will go into more detail, or just rewind and say the same thing over again. – [FONT=Verdana]Galactic Ruler Xenu [/FONT]

Innocence is just ignorance in a frilly pink dress. - Agnapostate

Those words make me want to stab people…With bullets. – JohnOSevens

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